bullet seating question (Lee dies)

[kWm]

Long time reader on this site, first post. I thought you guys may be able to answer this...im using a Lee seating die and am having trouble getting accurate depth. I will start a little long with the first round and work my way down to where i want it. Then the next one could be dead on or could be as far as 10thousandths either short or long. It seems like if i want to get every round perfect i have to start long and work down to it. Get the same results with vmax blitz kings and bergers and neck sizing or f-l sizing doesnt make a difference either way. I have my die screwed in far enuf theres no play on press going over center or anything. Any1 have any ideas? I also have the same set of dies for my .25-06 and load 75 vmaxs with same issue. Its gota be something im doing wrong, right? Or are these seating dies not real accurate?

[Rick in Oregon]

kWm: You mention length differences as much as ten thou....that's substantial in seating depth terms. I've never used Lee dies, so can't really comment on them as a result, but do know they are not what we'd call "tip-top" or the highest quality, being more budget themed. But others use them with very good results.

For my varmint and target rifles, I use only Redding dies, and for seating chores, their excellent micrometer Competition Seating Die. These dies allow exact seating depths by micrometer adjustment and a sliding sleeve that axially aligns the bullet with the die, assuring perfect concentricity and minute adjustments. Once you measure the distance to the lands with the proper tool, you can then control how far the bullets ojive is from the lands using these dies. They are rather spendy, but totally mitigates the issues you're having now.

There are other good seating dies that use micrometer seating arrangements, Forester, RCBS, Vikerman and others. For any degree of handloading precision in regard to seating depth control, nothing else comes close to this type of die.

Something to consider: Bullets come from the factory with different overall lengths, that's just the way it is when manufacturing bullets, especially the poly-tipped versions. The differences you notice may very well be different bullet lengths. Have you measured a batch of bullets to see it the length issue is with them and not your die use? It may not be a die issue at all, but a micrometer seater will solve this too, as it seats from the bullet ojive, and not the tip.

Sorry I can't help much with the Lee seating die issue other than spending money for something better.....maybe someone else has a better idea.

[Bill K]

Rick has the two points you have to check on. First the overall length of each bullet, they will vary as mentioned. Second you must seat with a good die, also as mentioned, on the ogive, which will the same on each bullet. If nothing else do invest in a micro seating die. Bill K

[kWm]

Thanks Rick and Bill. I measured a bunch of bullets and there is definitely some play in all of them. Burgers, Vmax, and b-kings all had up to 3 to 4 thousandths difference between some of them. Most were within a thousandth or two. I would say after I get my die set after seating the first round right where I want it then the following rounds are usually within 5 thousandths of that, but like I said I've seen up to 10 thou difference here and there. I'm seating at 2.30" which I know 10 thou either direction from there isn't going to be too deep or out touching the lands and get dangerous, but just wondering if it's effecting my accuracy a bit. So it looks to me like there's a couple factors exacerbating the problem: bullets vary by up to 3 to 4 thousands, and maybe my Lee seating die is only accurate to within a couple thousands or worse?? Like to hear from someone using the same die and if they have seen this??? Thanks in advance.

[Duker]

I can't help you with experience with Lee dies but adding to the good information you have already received here are a couple of more things to consider.

Neck tension - measure the neck of your resized neck prior to seating the bullet and then after the bullet is seated. If it's greater than .005, excessive seating force can slightly deform the bullet and produce inconstant final dept. I prefer .002 neck tension but I single load my guns.

Shape of seating plug - a mismatch of contour between the plug contour and and bullet contour coupled with excessive seating force will further contribute seating depth inconstancy.

Case cleaning - If you are using a sonic or the stainless steel pin method for case cleaning both in my opinion do too good of a job of cleaning the inside of the neck causing an increase of seating force required to seat the bullet.

[savgebolt]

kwm , first ,,,, i would imagine those dies came an instruction sheet,,, have it over COMPLETELY, some thoughts ,,,, check the threaded adapter in your press that the dies screw into make sure its tight,,, second , do you have the die adjustment lock ring tightened down,,,, thirdly ,,,,, you may want to take your dies apart and clean them even if they are new and verify the bullet seating stem is floating freely , lastley go to http://www.leeprecision.com or call
262.673.3075 ,let us know what you figure out

[Jim White]

All good advice, something is amiss for sure. I'd just add, for future reloading sessions, pick up a Stoney-Point (Hornady) Comparitor and measure the OAL of each bullet to the ogive because that's the real distance to lands, not the OAL of the bullet (end-to-end).

HTH...

[TEXAS222]

kWm, like others have said, forget about OAL & get a comparator so you can measure base to ogive. There is just too much difference in length even using the same bullet. Measuring to the ogive, I had the same results as you using the Lee seater. It all boiled down to neck tension. If I got a dozen with the same tension I would get the same reading. Then I would run into a few with tighter tension and would have longer measurements anywhere from .004 to .015 to ogive. I started using Forster Bench Rest seater dies and the problem was almost completely solved. Every once in awhile on new brass I'll get a really tight one & my measurement will be off a few thousandths. I think on the Lee seater, some of the pointed bullets get seated using the bullet tip vs. the ogive. I've heard some say they drill out the seater stem some then polish but I've never done this. Wish I could be more help,
Jim D

[kWm]

The neck tension is another issue i have. I bought factory hornady ammo to get my brass. When i neck sized them with the collet die i ran them up, back down, turned, and back up. But every bullet i seated i could tell was going in with a different amount of force. And with 35 bergers i had some that wouldnt even hold the bullet. I called Lee Precision and their tech basically told me its either a brass problem or a bullet problem not the collet die. He said if it was the die you would have the same issue with each piece of brass. He said i could polish .001-.002 off the mandrel and try it. He said thats basically putting a band-aid on the problem instead of fixing it. I polished around .0015 off and now they hold the bullets fine but each round i can still tell im getting different tension, some seat harder than others. The ones i measured before and after were mostly close to .003 of tension. Would the brass be playing a factor in this? I ran 20 r-p brass through the collet die and it seemed bullets seated with very similar force with those, or at least more similar than the hornadys.

[Duker]

kWm: When I stated earlier that I had no experience with Lee dies, I was referring to their standard sizing and seating dies. I do use their Collet die and a Redding body die on my 204's. I have found that to maintain consistent neck tension I have to anneal my brass every two firings. I built a Skip design annealing machine a while back that also improved brass neck tension uniformity over the torch/drill/socket method I previous used.

[kWm]

So the neck tension inconsistency is just something I'm going to have to live with unless I anneal my cases? I thought of maybe getting some Norma brass and seeing if those are more consistent. I had read somewhere that the Hornady brass is pretty thin and hardens quickly so it has some spring-back after being neck sized, would this be some of the problem and each case is not springing back the same? Or another reason theres such a difference in neck tension? I'd be interested in seeing some pics of your annealing machine and how it works.

[RAMOS]

I have two thoughts to share. The second one is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings, just my own opinion based on my own experiences.
1. Annealing is always a good thing. It prevents split necks and enhances accuracy by promoting more even tension. While machines are faster and more convenient, they are not required for uniform annealing.
2. Hornaday brass, IMHO, never results in a happy ending no matter what you do to it. I, like many others have used it when I had no other choice. In each case, I have replaced it at the first opportunity. It simply does not 'work' well, annealed or not and the primers pockets are a lesson in frustration.

Don't get me wrong, I truly like Hornaday as a company and appreciate what they do for us small caliber nuts. That being said, I have absolutely no use for their brass and don't even get me started on zip spindles!!!

[Bill K]

There may be better dies on the market than the Hornady's, but I have two set of them and found early in their use, if you make sure you tighten down the zip spindle rod very well, it will not slip and cause the problems, some have found. I learned this after having one slip on me, when I first used a set of them. Since then not one problem with slippage and a stripped thread on the shaft. Bill K

[TEXAS222]

kWm, I sent you a PM.
Jim D

[Duker]

KWm, I use Norma brass in one 204 and Nosler brass in the other to keep them separated and dedicated to a specific gun/chamber. However I'm too tight to have enough of it to last a PD trip so Win, R-P, and Hornady get used on the little rascals Norma/Nosler brass is the best you can get for a 204. But regardless of head stamp I believe consistent neck tension from a Colet die can only be achieved by regularly annealing. Enclosed is a link I started on another forum showing the two machines I built. It was a fun and satisfying winter project that kept cabin fever at bay for awhile.

http://www.smallcaliberclub.com/viewtop ... 539#p11689