Keyhole help!?!?

[E.Tn.]

Doesn't someone use the 39BK in their factory ammo? That would be an elimination.

Maybe it was American Ammo? I know I tried some, and it was slow and loose, but it was a factory loaded 39 BK.

On edit: duh, it's the Federal ammo that uses it. I think maybe the American ammo did too, but I'd have to check my ammo drawer...

Edit edit: I'm no expert, but I'd say get yourself a good bore guide (if you don't have one and keep the patch working one direction would be my recommendation. I don't know how the patch would stay on working back and forth. I've seen it said that more bores are damaged by improper cleaning...

TD,
Great idea. Right in front of my face. That should tell the tale right away. Thanks man.

[Rodbolt]

I've got over a dozen .20 cal rifles(most are .204 Ruger but a few 20BR and such)and have worked on a number of others. I did see a Savage Custom Shop LRPV in 5x35SMC that keyholed because the crown was butchered but that was a really bad factory crown. What happens to most 204's is that the barrel builds up carbon just in front of the throat. This has the affect of "sizing" the bullet (smaller), when fired, causing it to keyhole. The carbon is extremely difficult to remove once a hardened buildup occurs. The Hoppe #9 that I think you mentioned using would need to set in the barrel for hours or the barrel be plugged and the Hoppe solution poured in the barrel and soaked for (day?) to keep carbon fouling down. Once the hard build up is present gunsmiths will use J B compound on a patch wrapped around a nylon brush to remove the carbon, I do this routinely but hesitate recommending it, as if you do it incorrectly there is some risk.

The best nonabrasive carbon cleaner I've found is Slip 2000, used regularly it will keep a barrel shiny clean. If the hard carbon is there you will have to allow a lot of soak time and keep brushing with a good quality .20 cal bronze brush and patching until the gray is gone from a clean patch. I've heard that Carb-Out from the makers of Wipe-out works well but I've not tried it. Wipe-Out and Patch-Out with Accelerator work great on copper fouling but do little for the carbon. Copper fouling can cause key holes but it is more likely to be seen then the carbon. Remember that any liquid cleaner takes time (more then a few minutes) to work and when dealing with small bores and high performance (velocity) it takes patience and know how to keep your bore in shape. FWIW, I use Butches Bore Shine for routine cleaning but on a rough factory barrel you can spend a hour with it, a brush and patches after thirty to fifty shots. Conversely a .20 cal. Bartlein or Lilja barrel will clean up in five minutes (after soak time) with the same Butches,, etc after fifty shots. This is why prairie dog shooter covet a hand lapped custom barrel or the ever so rare factory barrel that is easy to clean. A side note to remember is that if you are spending a lot of time pushing and pulling brushes/patches through your muzzle, the crown will wear and need to be touched up to keep it shooting accurately. I love those Bartlein barrels!!

[Rambler]

HEY Rodbolt how does the 20BR do? I have a 22BR.and I love it But I was thinking about the 20br. and have wandered if I took the wrong path... thanks...

[E.Tn.]

Finally got a chance to go to the range at the crack of dawn yesterday. I spent nearly 3 hours last week cleaning the barrel until I couldn't get any solvent to show anything. I can't imagine there being any way to have more than just an insignificant amount of fouling in the darn thing. The first groups were 3 five shot groups using Berger 35g HP/H4895. I shot the groups in ascending order of the powder charge and in the photo below it's the target with the green dot starting with top left then top right then bottom left. The bottom right was shot with factory Winchester Supreme 32g Ballistic Silvertip later.
The bottom photo actually shows the fourth and fifth groups of the day ( the second and bottom group in the second photo is a 6 shot group of factory Hornady 40g )
The first shot of the day was at a 1/2 gal cardboard milk carton whth 2 packs of "raspberry ballistics jello" with a factory Hornady 40g shot through a lightly oiled barrel. Let me tell you, there was red jello all over a 30 foot radius! What a mess but way cool none the less!
Shots 1-4 at the paper targets did ok but shot 5 was low and way right. Shots 6,7,& 8 hit the paper sideways and this was very obvious through the scope. Shot 9 looked alright but shot 10 hit sideways too. Only 4 0f the next five hit the paper and 3 of these were sidways. Best I can tell is that only 5 or 6 of these 15 hit the paper anywhere near straight.
I figured that if this sucker is flipping bullets this bad if its going to flip factory loads it will do it now! WRONG!!! Something else I've never seen before - the first 5 shot groups of Winchester Supremes went through the same friggin hole! I don't really know how to measure groups, but I doubt very seriously a .40 cal bullet would go throughe hole without touching. I measured the hole several times and get anywhere from .377" to .399" edge to edge. I then shot a 6 shot group of factory Hornady 40's and they were equally unimpressive but no keyholes.
I then shot 3 five shot groups with 39g SBK's/Varget (26.3g-26.7g) combos with 2.300" OAL. 7 of these 15 keyholed. By the way these bullets were seated using a different bullet seating die than the previous keyholing bullets from earlier in the month. The commonality being a Lee neck sizing die used with both groups.
The last 5 shot group was a roughly 1 1/4" group from a pretty warm barrel with Winchester Supremes. I don't want to dispute any of the suggestions or advice all of you have taken time to give me. I really thank you for your help. I have yet to see this stability problem with factory loads though after 3 or 4 boxes- NONE! I just can't believe that zero keyholing occurs with factory loads and at least 1/3 of my handloads keyhole would indicate a problem with the rifle. I must be introducing some problem during the reloading process is all I can figure.
The only conclusion I can draw is that there dosen't seem to be anything wrong with my rifle. I hope that is the case because I now have proof this rifle CAN in fact shoot! I plan to try to talk to Lee Precision and see if they might want to look at this die for me.

Thanks for reading and if there is anything else anyone can think of please let me know.

Greg

[Gube]

Have you measured your "run out". Excessive run out will create accuracy problems. Not to sure if it would cause key-holes.

[jaredsally95]

HEY GREG MY NAME IS jARED I OWN A MODEL 12 fv SAVAGE AND I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM AS YOU I HAVENT COME TO ANY CONCLUSIONS YET IVE TRIED EVERYTHING ALMOST TO THE OINT OF SELLING IT LAST TIME I SHOT THE RIFLE I LOADED UP 35 GRAIN BERGERS h4895 26GRAINS, CCI 450 PRIMERS, OAL OF 2.26 WITH MY BARREL BEING CLEAN I SHOT 10LOADS OF 26 GRAINS OF POWDER THEY ALL TOUCHED THEN I ALSO TESTED UP TO THE MAX LOAD SO PROBALLY WITH 4 OTHER TEST LOADS THEY ALL KEY HOLED I NEVER TRIED THE 26 GRAINS AGAIN MY GUESS WAS I NEED TO TRY BENCHMARK POWDER IT HAS MORE VELOCITY THEN h4895 I KEEP YA POSTED

[Ahab]

Have the same rifle and had the same problem, only mine did it with factory loads from the get go as I was not reloading .204 at the time. Took it back to the gunshop who had their gunsmith look at it. He said send it back after also looking at the target and empty cases. Each case had primer extrusion. He said the firing pin hole in the bolt was too large. He also said to make a mark on the barrel somewhere to see if they changed it when it came back. Seems Savage doesn't like to acknowledge a bad barrel now and then. They sent it back with a target showing a 10 shot 3/4" group along with the Hornady empties. Still showing primer extrusion! A letter of explanation said the firing pin hole was within their manufacturing tolerances and the rifle shot within spec. No mention of replacing the barrel, but the mark I made was gone. Today it shoots fair with no keyholing. As this is the second Savage I needed to send back in several years I'm not inclined to buy another. Yes I know, thousands out there have had no problem with Savage. But then my Rugers, Howas, Remmy's, Wby haven't either.

[Fat NDN]

I had the same problem with the 39gr blitzkings. But the 32 gr shoot fine, or should I say they don't keyhole.
I have had a hard time gettig any hand load to shoot a decent group. I finally got a 1 inch group with 32 grain blitzkings and 35 grain Bergers with 26 grains of Benchmark.

[macbe39]

For what it's worth. I too had a Savage model 12 varmint that keyholed right out of the box
brand new. Sent it back to Savage, They said nothing was wrong with it, to shoot 40 gr hornadys thru it. Went to the range with 40 grainers and was shooting a 3/4 in. group at 100 yds. I decided to see how long it would keep shooting that good. The very next round keyholed! Enough is enough so I sent it down the road, took a $150.00 bath.
Bought a Remington 700 Varmint that shoots anything I feed it better than I can shoot.
There will be no more Savages purchased buy me ever again.
MACBE/ KS

[BU1(SCW)]

This is my first time posting a reply, so if I dont get all the data you need, just let me know. I haven't been handloading long, a couple of months is all and this info is worth exactly what it cost-nuthin'. I bought my 12fv about 5 months ago and when I started handloading it after the barrel broke in, I used the 45 degree chamfer. I, too, was getting keyholes and flyers that couldnt be explained, even after checking runout (less than 0.004 inches), tried everything to figure it out. And finally I pulled the bullet out and found the answer, the chamfer being used wasnt enough and I was scratching the heck out of the jacket. I switched to a VLD by Lyman and havent had a problem since, and in fact, compete against the 6 and 30 br guys and am holding my own. I am getting .3-.2 outside to outside groups. For what my engineering coursework is worth, a projectile in motion has energy, but it also has rotational energy (considerably less than the motion) and by changing the center of gravity for a projectile (39 gr SBK), the yaw rate may increase instead of decrease (wobble for lack of a better term). I got my info from Robert L. McCoy's Modern Exterior Ballistics-The launch and flight dynamics of symmetric projectiles. I will try and get my load data posted as soon as I get the picture to back up my claims.

[Bunnybuster]

Since the factory loads are not exhibiting the problem, it is most probably not anything to do with the rifle itself.

So the problem is in the reloads. My first thought is that you are somehow getting the bullets off center, or canted.

Have you checked to see if the reloads are actually true? Check for run out on the necks, and at a point just back from the bullet tips.

High or low chamber pressures can effect barrel harmonics, and fling the bullet around quite a bit also. But if you ar loading from a manual you should'nt be seeing this effect enough to cause the bullets to be unstable.

[Jim White]

To all,

- Forgive me if I've overlooked something that may have already been pointed out.

- Thanks for the tip about the ring build up in the throat area. I know several folks who has experienced this with moly coated bullets.

Greg,

If I read your post correctly, your reloads with 35 Bergers, 39 Sierra's and 40 Hornady key-holes, yet factory loads with these bullets, thus far, have not. I also don't see where you have tried reloading the 32 grain bullets nor do I see where any 32 grainers have ever key-holed. My only experience with keyhole loads came from rounds going sub-sonic and too slow of a rifle twist, even at 100 yards.

- Have you checked how much neck tension is on the bullet. It would seem to me that a loose neck "may" contribute to this problem.
- Try reloading some 32 grain bullets and see if they keyhole as well.
- You can "mic" bullets but my guess is they're all are going to be pretty good.
- Try chronographing your loads. I know you mentioned the loads but it doesn't hurt to check.
- Maybe the barrel just doesn't like 35, 39 and 40 grain bullets (but I feel thats stretchin' a bit at this point). Twist?

HTH

[varget204]

have had 39 b.king shoot.1-to.3 at 2.260;then they started keyholeing70%+ .stopped loading them.talked to sierra they said i had a burr in barrel.no other bullet has ever keyholed best groups under.1.in feb decided to seat some at 2.290-2.315 shot.201,.254,.281..380,.386 .the last were on windier days.the temp was from 32 -50 degrees.shot 2 -3shot groups the other day 72+ degrees ,both had 1 bullet that key holed .bullets are supposed to be .204 ,some were measured at .2035.don't know if its undersize bullets or warm weather ? all cases with in .5gr,all bullets 39.0 gr ,powder charges exact.

[fattrav10]

had simaler issues with trued remmy model 7. the bushing die was to tight one size up and no more keyholes hope this helps

[varget204]

39gr. blitz king;measured approx. 150 bullets,they went from .7315 to .7465 .these were out of 3 boxes which were weighed in groups.39.0 & 39.1 grains.going to load some by wt. & length to see if this stops keyholeing.has anyone else ever measured the length of 39 gr. blitz king bullets?? varget204.