204Ruger

dsandfort wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:24 amNo need to shout to make an alternative point.

Agree, no one said in this post that a scope level intended for shooting has virtually ANYTHING to do with scope mounting/leveling. Also, no one has argued that the vertical crosshair should point directly to the axis of the bore, we all know it should if mounted properly.

IF you just eyeball it ,you might get close ,probably not.If my rails were not level w/receiver rings and scpoe were not level w/ the barrel ;IT WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE TO hit targets at over one half a mile.I do not know ANY BENCHREST,PRECISION,STEEL,LONG RANGE SHOOTERS that DO NOT get everything LEVEL and PLUMB.I"ll put my groups up against anybody period.Most people who do not level,level,level have not shoot long range and would not hit SQUAT.[For the younger generation Squat means zip,zero,notta] .As Bill K mentioned .the shooter input is huge;but if not lined up level the Best Shooters would be at a SERIOUS DISADVANTADE.It's OK to eyeball stuff up close;a guy can shoot some good groups,once and awhile ;but that won't get it done at Distance.varget204

Correct, Varget, I can be off by eyeballing. But it is simple to verify by cranking up 30 moa and seeing if my POI moves right or left. If it moves left, I know m scope is twisting slightly right, and I fix it.

But what I don't do any more is assume that the rifle-maker got the mounts (or rail, dovetail, etc.) such that they are EXACTLY perpendicular to an axis through the exact center of the bore. And then that the ring-make made the rings perfectly, so they maintain it. Sometimes those things happen, but often they don't. If they do, you got lucky and leveling will work great. If they don't, all the leveling in the world is not going to keep your POI from drifting right or left when you crank up.

And it doesn't take much of a machining error to put you out of perpendicularity. It also doesn't take me much time to shoot a group at 50 yards, crank up 20 or 30 moa and shoot another group, and then plumb-bob the two groups and adjust if necessary. Whatever, that scope is probably going to be there a good while, and I want to be certain it is right. When I'm done I KNOW my scope is scope is oriented perfectly perpendicular. If it took me a half-hour longer to do that than leveling would have, it is worth it.

In the You Tube video by MRAD Outdoors, couldn't you just as easily shine another flashlight down the bore of the rifle to project the centerline of the bore on the wall simultaneously so that you are absolutely sure that ALL variables are taken into consideration???

skipper: in the video the light will get close.How many thousands of an inch wide are lines ? Does not appear to be very precise; are they.010..020,.030 etc.It may be an ok check.ONE THING is for CERTAIN.Everybodys EYES LIE, [ Precision LEVELS NEVER LIE,If your going for 1 hole groups;or shooting 1/4 MOA or less at HALF A MILE or farther I'd pick a LEVEL EVERYTIME. I thought I was WRONG ONCE back in the 50's : SADLY I was MISTAKEN Shoot what works for you,if you want the best ;Do what the PRO'S DO.They do what they do,cause That's What Works.

varget204 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:16 pm skipper: in the video the light will get close.How many thousands of an inch wide are lines ? Does not appear to be very precise; are they.010..020,.030 etc.It may be an ok check.ONE THING is for CERTAIN.Everybodys EYES LIE, [ Precision LEVELS NEVER LIE,If your going for 1 hole groups;or shooting 1/4 MOA or less at HALF A MILE or farther I'd pick a LEVEL EVERYTIME.

Okay, let's look at this logically. You use your eyes to determine if the bubble in the level is centered between the marks on the glass tube. Your eyes are never going to be able to see if the bubble is exactly centered between the marks OR is .XXX thousandths off. So the same eyeballs that are judging the lines on the wall are also trying to determine if the bubble is exactly centered. Either method seems less than perfect.

Use Digital precision level,Some cell phone apps go down to less than .00001,you can see if your off a hundreth of a Degree 0r finer.If you a lot of precision machineing a good machinest can see about .0015,the average person about .004-.005 /thats way to much for me.I think you can still find apps for free, way more precise than EYEBALLIN. I don't think this would apply if your crosseyed

varget204 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:21 pm I"ll put my groups up against anybody period.Most people who do not level,level,level have not shoot long range and would not hit SQUAT.[For the younger generation Squat means zip,zero,notta]

I'll see you, sir, at the next 5 shot challenge. Now that's a CHALLENGE.

Right Skipper, the five shot challenge is fun and really shows " how the rubber meets the road" so too speak. Bill K

Especially Skipper, if we had the five shot challenge, from the bench, as we have done. But also threw in one with, say a three shot challenge, but off hand at 100 or maybe narrow it down to fifty yards.

I think a great idea; would be the five shot challenge between 600 to 1000 yards . varget204

That might prove interesting , Set one up, along the lines that Skipper does the annual 5 shot tourney and we will see how many enter. Bill K

Dear Varget204

You threw down the gauntlet with your statement "I"ll put my groups up against anybody period." I'm calling you out. The next 5 Shot Challenge is coming real soon. Let's see if you can back up your statement.

Skipper: Looking forward to this upcoming new years shoot. Hope more enter, than did last year. But regardless, those of us that do, will have some good competition, as usual. And again I thank you for your work and all the effort you put in scoring, recording and all for us. Bill K

Don't know how I missed this thread when it was fresh.

I level my scope empirically using trial-and-error by shooting near and far.

First, I put a piece of tape on my front scope ring which extends to the ring/scope interface. Then I put a second piece of tape on my scope right at the ring. I then draw a single reference line between the two.

After that, I sight in at 100 yards, making sure my bullet is at exactly 12:00. I then shoot a group at, say, 300 yards or whatever longer distance I choose (the greater the distance, the better).

If my bullet at the longer distance is to the right (clockwise) of 12:00, the scope is canted to the left (counterclockwise). So I rotate the scope clockwise a bit, using the lines on the tape pieces as a reference.

I then resight the rifle at 100 yards, using windage adjustments to reach 12:00, and shoot again at the longer distance. I repeat this step until I'm at 12:00 both at near and far distances.

It works for me.

Parenthetically, I thought I'd heard that one of the manufacturers had introduced a scope/ring combination this year that had etched gradations on both the scope top and the rings to accomplish what I do with tape, but if that's so, I don't remember who (maybe Trijicon?).

Wow, There is some really sketchy advice going on here with "ensuring that the vertical crosshair is exactly in line with the bore." . Please take the advice of those using LEVELS and not weird science that makes no sense. The video is pretty straight forward so are the instructions found included with the Straight Shot LLC scope level found at Brownells. https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tool ... 56125.aspx Level the rifle then level the scope! Just that simple.
Happy Shooting,
Hoot