Load developmenbt progress

[Bill K]

Is it not interesting how we learn something at times in our life. Kind of like we did when our Mom's gave us a tap on the back of the head, remember ? If your old enough to remember when parents took steps to steer us the correct way in life.

[Tom Kat]

I think Hoppes #9 is good enough. I'm also a fan of Butches Bore Shine and Kroil. I first found out about the carbon ring years ago while cleaning my Rem XR 100. Wife called me in for dinner when I had just started a patch through the chamber so I just left the rod in the guide while I ate. Thing was that I was getting clean patches before I went inside. It took me by surprise when I came back and found the patch had turned black. That lead to some intense cleaning with JB. I always had fliers with that gun till I got the carbon ring completely out. Didn't have a bore scope back then.

You have sparked something in me. I read and looked at lots of videos on the carbon ring...I can see me spending some money on a bore scope.

I appreciate the help and wisdom I have got on this page.

[Tom Kat]

Another question- I have been using a nylon brush for my .204's. Do most of you use a brass? brush or a nylon brush?

[Bill K]

I use both, but 90 % if the time the brass is favored, at least for me, over all these years. Just watch how you work it at the muzzel end.

[Rick in Oregon]

Another question- I have been using a nylon brush for my .204's. Do most of you use a brass? brush or a nylon brush?

Good question.
Some years ago, Darrell Holland (Holland's Shooting Supplies) and Chris Dichter (owner of Pac-Nor) did a test to determine how effective various brushes and cleaners worked to remove copper and carbon fouling by putting stainless steel barrels in the mill and cutting them in half lengthwise after scrubbing with nylon and bronze brushes and various solvents. They purposely used very fouled barrels for the test for maximum disclosure.

It was clearly shown that the only real effective method was to use the bronze brush with plenty of elbow grease. Nylon brushes just don't cut it (pun intended) as they just do not offer enough abrasive action to cut the carbon, period. These tests resulted in Darrell formulating his 'Witches Brew" bore cleaner for stubborn deposits of both carbon and copper fouling. Trust me, this stuff works, and works well for those problem barrels that normal cleaning methods just don't remove the crud you want out.

Many solvents work for this, but the bronze brush was and still is king in regard to actual removal of carbon and copper, along with liberal use of the solvent of choice. Hoppe's Elite Bore Cleaner is very good for this when you can find it. I use Shooter's Choice mixed 60/40 with Kroil to get under that fouling, a trick tendered to me by a well-known BR shooter. It works quite well too, but there's many others including Butch's Bore Shine which I also use on occasion.

After a complete cleaning to bare steel, I soak a patch with Lock-Ease, let the carrier evaporate, then run a dry patch through the barrel prior to shooting. This leaves a residue of colloidal graphite in the barrel to reduce both friction and fouling for subsequent shots. This really makes a difference in the amount of crud that accumulates in the barrel, and makes the next cleaning much easier with much less fouling. Coated bullets also work, but adds both time and cost. For years I used tungsten disulfide (WS2) coated bullets for this endeavor, but now only use it on very high volume rifles, as again, it's time and cost. The time factor is my main gripe, not so much for cost, as if we like it, we use it.

HTH, JME

[Tom Kat]

Rick your post confirms several things I read and saw on the internet. I have been using nylon, but that is about to end. There are a few videos of bore scope pictures that do not lie! The brass brush IS the king for really getting carbon and dirt out of a rifle. I am going back to that for my .204

I think I will get a bore scope in the near future. Its only money, and I cant take it with me...

[Tom Kat]

MTPaul this thread may be of interest to you

[MTPaul]

Thank you for keeping me in mind Bill K. Yes, I do find this very interesting on a number of levels. The rifle build, the cleaning process and the load development, although at present I am not going down that rabbit hole (load development and hand loading).

In no particular order I'll provide my two cents. I too have found the use of brass brushes preferable to nylon when going after copper and carbon. I also use Hoppe's, Kroil oil, JB Paste, Butch's Bore Shine, CLR and Sweet's either separately or in various combinations depending on what I'm going after. Of course, when using Sweet's, I am cautious and aware of the use of brass cleaning components. I have not used any colloidal graphite (Lock-Ease) type products yet, but I might have to give it a try as it seems from the comments, to make the next cleaning job much easier with much less fouling to boot - a winning combination in my book!

The rifle build looks like a home run judging by the holes in paper. I understand the accuracy and consistence of the rifle is also tied to the load development. However, I'd venture to say if various factory loads were also carefully evaluated to find the one(s) best suited to the rifle, the rifle would in all likelihood still be a shooter, perhaps not quite to the same degree of that witnessed with the hand loads but close.

Judging by the picture, it looks like the intended purpose of the build is to be both a hunting rifle (aka carried) and also shot off the bench? That would explain the choice of the barrel not being a bull type stainless. I wonder where the various components were sourced and how this would compare to one purchased off the shelf? Hmmm...

[Rick in Oregon]

Paul, even my HB rifles are suited to carry for chucks and rats. I do not have any dedicated 'bench rifles', all are heavy enough for bench shooting, and still light enough to pack about all day for cruising the junipers and rock piles for chucks. If I anticipate shooting over 100 rounds in a day, I'll pick a HB rig, but for being out all day doing it on foot, then I take a lighter rifle that's still capable of 1/2" or better.

As for handloading, you'll never ever get the optimal accuracy the rifle is capable of shooting factory loads, never. When shooting factory, you're at the mercy of mass production and 'iffy' QC. I offer the below to illustrate with a few targets. I'll add that none of my varmint (or hunting rifles for that matter), have ever had a factory round shot through them. None.

Not a 204, but another sweet caliber for what we do, the 221FB or "Furball" as we call it. Handloading gave me groups that allow eye-ball shooting of chucks when they only have an eye and ear showing above the rock...



My pet Cooper 20VT has racked up hundreds of chucks and literally thousands of GS's over the years with about any 32gr bullet I feed her:



And one of my 204's, this one also a Cooper MTV. This puppy is good out to 500 if the wind is not an issue:



None of that accuracy is possible with factory loads; handloading is the only way to go to achieve this degree of precision. It may be a rabbit hole, but it's one that I've enjoyed now for almost 60 years. Those snowy winter days when no one wants to be outside are spent in my man cave at the bench making up loads that put a smile on my face in anticipation of time in the field behind one of my pet rifles. It's a good thing.

[Rick in Oregon]

Paul, even my HB rifles are suited to carry for chucks and rats. I do not have any dedicated 'bench rifles', all are heavy enough for bench shooting, and still light enough to pack about all day for cruising the junipers and rock piles for chucks. If I anticipate shooting over 100 rounds in a day, I'll pick a HB rig, but for being out all day doing it on foot, then I take a lighter rifle that's still capable of 1/2" or better.

As for handloading, you'll never ever get the optimal accuracy the rifle is capable of shooting factory loads, never. When shooting factory, you're at the mercy of mass production and 'iffy' QC. I offer the below to illustrate with a few targets. I'll add that none of my varmint (or hunting rifles for that matter), have ever had a factory round shot through them. None.

Not a 204, but another sweet caliber for what we do, the 221FB or "Furball" as we call it. Handloading gave me groups that allow eye-ball shooting of chucks when they only have an eye and ear showing above the rock...



My pet Cooper 20VT has racked up hundreds of chucks and literally thousands of GS's over the years with about any 32gr bullet I feed her:



And one of my 204's, this one also a Cooper MTV. This puppy is good out to 500 if the wind is not an issue:



None of that accuracy is possible with factory loads; handloading is the only way to go to achieve this degree of precision. It may be a rabbit hole, but it's one that I've enjoyed now for almost 60 years. Those snowy winter days when no one wants to be outside are spent in my man cave at the bench making up loads that put a smile on my face in anticipation of time in the field behind one of my pet rifles.

And for the 'bench rifle' vs 'carry rifle' thing, I made what worked out to be a viable addition to my kit with what I call my "Varmint Stake". Great for any rifle w/o sling studs that precludes the use of a bipod. Most factory Cooper rifles are set up for shooting off the bags w/o studs, so this rig works great for walking about with an accurate HB rig that gives excellent stability. Plus the cost was zero....always a nice touch.
My Cooper MTV 204R ready for accurate action:



Just another tool in that toolbox.

[MTPaul]

Rick, you certainly make a compelling argument on the merits of hand loading in order to wring the most accuracy out of a rifle and I am not slighting anyone for doing so. Quite the contrary, I get your point and I applaud and admire those who have the time and commitment to do so, and the results certainly speak LOUDLY as to the merits. I am just not quite ready, today, to devote the time and resource that would be necessary to do it right. I just know from personal experience with pursuing other interests (eg. fly-fishing) that if I go there, I won't be satisfied with a mediocre, half-hearted attempt. It'll be all or nothing.

With fly-fishing I started out with a very basic Shakespear set-up and while I was able to catch trout (my favorite freshwater species as they tend to dwell in some of the most awe-inspiring places), it didn't quite appeal to my OCD nature. Soon I was building my own rods from scratch including turning out cork handles that fit my hand perfectly. I also used various colored rod wrapping techniques including the use of gold wire inlay. Then I started tying my own flies from raw material I gathered from pheasants, quail, chucker, deer and elk I harvested each year. I spend quite a bit of time at my tying bench as a result. Now I'm hiking into the far reaches of the hinterland to catch trout that have seen little or no fishing pressure to further satisfy my addiction. I know I would follow a similar path should I take up reloading and I'm not quite there yet...maybe someday, just not yet. Perhaps when my knees finally give out or I suffer from some other medical condition which limits my mobility.

We all have our passions in life and right now I'm just not ready to make the time and resource commitment to hand loading in order to do it right.

BTW - I like your "Varmint Stake"! Necessity is the mother of invention.

[Rick in Oregon]

I completely get that. Your passion IRT fly fishing rivals mine with firearms. Both can be quite a deep rabbit hole for guys like us with severe OCD.

If/when you land a 204R rifle, keep us posted and we'll help any way we can in this remote fashion. It's quite the fun caliber for the intended purpose.

[Tom Kat]

Yes this gun will be for calling coyotes, shooting off a bench, and taking PD hunting. I did a lot of research and got a good sling for days I carry it-

[Tom Kat]

I should add I have recently added some brass brushes to my cleaning kit, thats the way I am going moving forward

[Bill K]

You will never be sorry and will find those brushes will work much better. Just be easy at the crown area with them. But don't worry yourself much even at that point.