End of my rope

[Unclebob4]

Hi all. I've religiously followed this site without really adding anything much but I've about had it with one of my rifles. Great looking Savage m12 thumbhole in 204 but is driving me crazy. I'll try to attach a couple of target pictures, but basically it will place the first shot 1.5 inches high and 1.5 inches to the left every day. Shots after that will generally be in a .75 group. I'm shooting 35 gr Bergers, 25.2gr of RE 10-X, Rem 7.5 and a coal of 2.300. I've tried everything I know of to zero in on the situation but nothing I've done has helped. I've shot the gun VERY clean, dirty, retorqued the action screws, 2 different sets of rings(both Burris Signature), 2 different scopes etc.
At this point I am open to any ideas. If I can't get it straightened out I'll be looking to change the barrel.

[ryutzy]

I dont really have any helpful info for that other than one of my friends has a savage in 22-250 and has a similar problem. His first shot is different from his group by an inch or so then the next three shots are tight, but by about the 5th shot or so the group moves high and to the left. As his barrel slowly gets warmer the shots creep further left. He always atributed it to the barrel getting warmer but it shouldnt move as much as his are. My gun doesnt do that so I'm not sure if its the barrel or what. Hope you can get it figured out.

[Glen]

If that 1st shot is from a cold clean barrel then your rig might like a fouler,, or in this case,, 2 foulers to get worked into shape. Rd #2 is still sticking out of the group a little bit. Is this a common occurrence for rd #2 also? 3,4,5 look purdy darn good & it would be interesting to see a 7 shot group with your exact same method. Your rig might like a fouled bore. Just a thought.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Get some Lock-Ease from Ace Hardware. It's a graphite lubricant suspended in a petroleum base. Wet a patch with it and run through your bore after cleaning. It'll reduce the shift from your CBS. Benchrest shooters and professional snipers -- guys who don't have the luxury of taking a fouler before they get down to bidness -- do this. Best of all, it's completely harmless -- it's even a rust inhibitor -- so you can leave it forever without it harming the steel.

You could also get into coating your bullets (moly, WS2 or hBN). The coating also reduces the CBS's shift. It's ideally suited to a high volume rifle like a varmint gun because is reduces heat build-up, which leads to "barrel walk." Plus it dramatically increases the round count before barrel crud starts to affect accuracy.

[Unclebob4]

Wow. Thanks Fred for the idea to use the Lock Ease. Just happens I have some and after making sure there was no carbon or copper in the bore I passed a patch through it as you suggested. Take a look at the target. Now the first shot hit 4 inches low and the next five were clustered together. Shots 2 and 3 were on that target and 4, 5 and 6 were on another that I overlaid and copied so you could see where they all fell with only one picture. My plan for tomorrow is to:
1. Clean the gun again and try it with out any lube at all. See what it does.
2. Let it cool and try again with a cold tube but fouled from the earlier group.
3. Pass my bore snake through the gun, semi clean bore, let it cool and try again.

I'm still open to suggestions.
Thanks all

[cracker]

is your barrel free floated. sounds like your barrel may be touching the stock. check it cold, then check it again warm, then hot.
best of luck figuring it out.
Cracker

[rayfromtx]

Can you take a picture of your rifle and rest setup and is this at 100 yards? Are you using wind flags? The shot four inches low is especially troubling. It would seem to be caused by liquid in the barrel on the first shot or a wacked scope. Have you inspected your crown with high magnification? The group without the flier is worrisome if this is at 100. Just trying to give you more rope so you won't be at the end of yours. We've figured these things out before. I imagine this one can be fixed too. This is a great group of guys around here and I've learned a lot from them. One other thing. The bore snake is not the answer. A good cleaning regimen with a bore guide is a must. How many rounds are through this barrel?

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Holy moley, I've never seen the Lock-Ease make the problem worse, much less cause a 5" shift in CBS @100 yards.

I'll go sit in the corner and shut up now.

[Bayou City Boy]

For clarification purposes on the Lock-ease.... After cleaning the barrel, let the L-E set in the barrel for 15 minutes or so (muzzle down) until the liquid carrier evaporates. Then run a clean dry patch down the barrel to remove any excess graphite in the barrel. The barrel is then shot with a thin dry layer of graphite in the barrel.

What you experienced is typical of a wet bore (oil or graphite) for the first shot significantly affecting barrel harmonics....

-BCB

[Unclebob4]

Thanks guys for all of the suggestions, let me fill you in on a few more of the details that I left off before.
All the targets were at 100 yards shot from a bench with a sturdy "lead sled" . The last trip to the range was when there was no wind, but it was hot (90). The scope is good and I've tried 3 now with the same results, one Nikon Monarch, one Burris FF2 and a Burris Signature. Rings and mounts are good.
There have been about 350 rounds through the gun and it is cleaned every time I come home from the range. Bore guide is always used with either Butch's or Montana Extreme to remove all of the copper.
The Lock Ease really caught me by surprise. I coated the bore in the evening and ran a dry patch through to remove any excess. I didn't shoot the gun until the next afternoon, so I doubt that there would be any liquid left in the bore.
I had to work today but I hope to get back to the range tomorrow.
Thanks again guys.

[sand rat]

Hey Unclebob 4

Did you make it back to the range? If so, how are things working know?

I'd really like to know what you find out!

Sand Rat

[Keith in Ga]

Probably not an issue, but why don't you try a front mechanical rest and rear bag? I've shot from an early model "lead sled" (high recoiling turkey loads), and I don't think I could shoot a precision group from the sled. The one I used just wasn't precise enough to do accuracy work. Might be just another variable you could eliminate. Also, I tried BCB's lock-ease techniques in my Cooper .204, and it worked fine. First shot was in the group, and gun was easier to clean. Good luck, and keep us posted on what you find out.

[204Shooter]

is your barrel free floated. sounds like your barrel may be touching the stock. check it cold, then check it again warm, then hot.
best of luck figuring it out.
Cracker

Yea, what cracker said. Have you checked this yet?

[cracker]

Hope you are getting this figured out. After reading this thread I have come up with more ?'s. is this the best load you have come up with for this rifle?. Have you let others shoot it to see if they get the same results.
Before I looked at a new barrel I would,
1 check the crown
2 bed the action
3 float the barrel
4 buy a cz (just funnin here)
Sportingly
Cracker

[Unclebob4]

Hi all I'm back, a minor health issue kept me away but I'm on the mend.
In the last 2 days my brother stopped in looked at the gun and said he had never seen a Savage with as rough a bore. He sent me some loads to fire lap the barrel. The bore was showing lots of machine marks.
Fired and cleaned, fired and cleaned etc. etc. The bore does look smoother but there are still some machine marks visible.
Took the gun to the range yesterday and shot it after it was cleaned as clean as I could make it. below

I though I was going to cry.
I then figured that it had walked up as far as it was going to go, so I corrected the scope to match the last 2 shots. Then I got this.

I was feeling much better.
Had to leave the range so I decided to leave the gun and shoot it dirty and cool today.
First 3 shots.

At least they are all together. Corrected the scope again and shot again.

I may have pulled the one shot, and I wasn't able to take the time I normally would because to the approaching thunderstorm.
Last 3 shots.


Going to clean and try again as soon as I can.

By the way, I do have a CZ 527 in 204 and it shoots just about everything the same and with amazing accuracy.