Winchester brass problems (way too short)

rayfromtx · Post by **rayfromtx** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:36 am

I purchased 500 winchester cases a while back while waiting for my pacnor 204 barrel to go on my savage action. I had to wait for my go gauge. While I was waiting, I uniformed the primer pockets and deburred the flash holes.

I then measured a bunch of them and found them all to be in between 1.843 and 1.848 long, as I recall. I went ahead and trimmed them all to 1.843".

I recently got the go gauge and it measures 1.55" with the 330 size comparator. I measured a bunch of my new brass and it is all around 1.533" What's up with that? If I set the chamber up with the go gauge, I will have a headspace length with the comparator of around .020 longer than my brass. This seems like way to much and I can see case head separation in my future or at least shortened case life.

I just checked the winchester website and they no longer list 204 brass. Why hasn't this had more bandwidth already? Have any of you had problems with this? It was mentioned on the Savage website and that's why I got to checking. Their lot number was 1xh80. Mine were lot number 1xg71.

I have a few undesirable options. I can trash this brass that I have invested a lot of time in and try to get a small credit from winchester that would be fairly worthless to me and buy some expensive brass from someone else.

I could mill about .014" off my go gauge and use the 500 cases in a chamber with a shortened headspace to match the short brass. I wouldn't be able to chamber bactory ammo but this brass should last as long as the barrel if I treat it right.

I could try to load to the lands to force the head back against the bolt so the growth happens at the shoulder instead of at the head but I would probably end up with short necks. It is also possible that this strategy wouldn't work at all with the dimensions I'm working with but I won't know how much freebore I have until I get my barrel.

Can anyone shed some light on this or help out with opinions or suggestions.

frustratedly yours,
Ray

Rick in Oregon · Post by **Rick in Oregon** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:13 am

ray: Are you saying that the brass is too short at the shoulder datum line to the case base, OR are you referring to case overall length being a deficit of .020"?

I've shot/detailed 500 rounds of Winchester brass for my Sako 204 without any problems related to case head separation or any other problem, and the rifle has turned in groups in the .2's using that brass....some of that brass is now being loaded for the 5th firing without any signs of woe.

rayfromtx · Post by **rayfromtx** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:22 am

I'm talking about the length from the datum line to the case base(what I would call the case head). There will be a .020" growth in the brass near the case head on the first firing if I use a saami go gauge to set head space and load as normal. Do you have any new ww brass on hand to check?

The link to the thread on another site is http://savageshooters.baker-media.com/S ... 178.0.html

If I'm not supposed to link to another site, I'm sorry.

glenn asher · Post by **glenn asher** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:11 pm

That IS interesting, just when I was wanting to buy more brass, too

Oh well, Remington and Hornady will be happy to sell me some, if need be. Winchester's brass is usually pretty good, if a bit undersized. It sounds like someone dropped the ball in East Alton.

Rick in Oregon · Post by **Rick in Oregon** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:43 pm

Rayfmtx: Okay, here's what I found using my Stoney Point cartridge headspace gages:

Using a CAD drawing sent to me by Hornady, the datum measurment for the 204 Ruger is 1.539"

My WW once fired brass measures exactly 1.539"

New WW brass still in the bag measures exactly 1.534"

It sounds as if you really did get some undersize WW brass. I'd take it back and try another bag from another store in hopes of getting another production run, that is if you're not turned off now on WW brass. You may even want to call them and complain. Good thing you checked it.

acloco · Post by **acloco** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:52 pm

1.534 and 1.533....you worried about 0.001"?

I understand your point, but how do you know the go gauge is not the problem?

Or...use a piece of your new brass as your go gauge and be done with it.

rayfromtx · Post by **rayfromtx** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:22 pm

Rick-
How is it that your cad drawing shows 1.539 and my stonypoint head space gauge reads 1.550 on my go gauge? What does your go gauge measure to? I am using the 330 gauge on the comparator.

acloco- I'm sure not worried about .001". I'm worried about .020. If I set up my chamber on my go gauge and leave .002 of play on the go gauge then it will be set to 1.552" That is .019 longer than my average new brass. Wouldn't that be something to worry about?

I can set the headspace to work on my brass if I want to set up a chamber that is around .015 shorter than my go gauge but that may mean that factory ammo will not fit the gun. I would have to measure a lot more brass to make sure it will all chamber and there may need to be mods made to my body die to be able to set back the shoulders at some future date. I would also give up 1% of my case capacity if that matters.

So maybe I shrug my shoulders and don't worry about it but I like to get to the bottom of things like this less they come back to haunt me later and I say to myself, " I knew that didn't seem right".

The go gauge is a PTG. What does yours measure?

Rick in Oregon · Post by **Rick in Oregon** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:28 pm

Ray: I'm also using the 330 SP gage in my comparator. It's measuring to the datum line of the case, right at the shoulder junction to the case body. I just rechecked it just to make sure.....1.539" on all fired cases coming out of my Sako 204.

The CAD drawing is from Hornady, the originators of the cartridge, so I trust it implicitly.

rayfromtx · Post by **rayfromtx** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:55 pm

Rick-
What does your go gauge measure with your stony point? I wasn't questioning the cad drawing. I'm questioning my go gauge. Why wouldn't it match the blueprint?

jo191145 · Post by **jo191145** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:01 pm

ray

Sorry to hear Win messed up another batch.
You can use your short Win brass for a go guage.
Problem is when its time for bumping back the shoulder your die will not be able to size that deeply. Could shave .020 off the shell holder. After your done with that brass I'd recommend chucking the shellholder away and resetting your headspace to normal specs.
Sounds like a lot of trouble to me. Go to the Win site, buy as many coffee mugs as you can with your forty Win bucks. With some decent Hornady brass reloads set those mugs 500yds out and commence firing

I have 600pcs of useless Win brass and I never even measured the headspace on them

rayfromtx · Post by **rayfromtx** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:02 pm

In checking my handloaders manual of cartridge conversions, I see that the shoulder is supposed to be 1.5386 and have a diameter of .3599. This means that at the .330 datum line the length would be longer than 1.539. Is your drawing indicating the shoulder or the datum line as being 1.539?

Rick in Oregon · Post by **Rick in Oregon** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:06 pm

That 1.539" is right at the body/shoulder junction on the CAD drawing, and my 330 gage duplicates that measurement exactly.

rayfromtx · Post by **rayfromtx** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:09 pm

jo191145-
That is an excellent idea except I didn't get 40 winchester bucks. That was the guy that started the thread on the other site. What was wrong with your 600 cases?

rayfromtx · Post by **rayfromtx** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:11 pm

That's really odd Rick the 330 datum should be a good bit longer. Have you checked your go gauge with the 330 gauge yet?

Rick in Oregon · Post by **Rick in Oregon** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:17 pm

Don't see any need to Ray. Factory Sako rifle, shoots in the .2's, all brass comes out perfect, don't own a go-gage, rifle shows no problems. Just because a go-gage measures a certain dimension, that does not mean a ST insert will give the same measurement, as it references a different point on the case; the datum line, not the body/shoulder junction as the CAD drawing also does.