40 gr. Key-holage

[venison_burger]

I've just returned from a frusterating day at the range that was cut short by a terrible key-hole problem. Today was my first day shooting my 40 gr. VMax bullets that I've loaded over BLC-2 powder. I'm shooting a Rem 700 with a 1-12" twist barrel. My first couple groups at 100 yards measured 3 to 5 inches and tore jagged key-holes in the paper. I tried a three-shot group at 200 yards. One bullet hit the 8x11" piece of paper, the other two did not. I then tried my 35 gr. bergers to make sure my rifle wasn't ruined somehow, and they shot their usual sub-inch group. I tried 39 gr. SBKs a couple months ago which also key-holed, and I was hopping I got a bad batch. I tried a couple different powders and seating depths, to no avail...

I seem to remember reading about people with similar problems on this site, although i couldn't find anything in 15 minutes of looking. Does this sounds familiar to anyone? 32 gr. v-max and 35 gr. bergers shoot wonderfully. 39 and 40 gr. bullets do not. Is there anything I can do short of re-barreling? Thanks,

[MT204]

My 2 sons have Rem 700 and shot .5 moa groups @ 100 yards using 40 grain vmax and 26.7 grains reloader 15. My ar has a 1:10 twist and I shoot even tighter groups.

[venison_burger]

No doubt. 1 in 12" is the standard twist rate for the .204, and Hornady's two main bullets are the 32 and 40 gr. VMax. The 12 twist barrel should be fine, and maybe twist isn't the issue...

[Glen]

Some factory rifles like em. Some hate em. And the rest tolerate them. Even the 39gr BK's don't do so well in a few rifles. What powder charges were these loaded at?

[giterdone]

Start with a clean copper-free barrel and try 25.1gr. RL-10X powder, Rem 7 1/2BR primer and 39gr. Sierra BlitzKing O.A.L. 2.285" (To tip not ogive). When switching different loads/bullets clean the barrel first. The Sierra's are easier to get to group than the 40gr. V-Max Hornady's. Tip for .204's....Dont crowd the rifling by seating the bullet out too far. IMHO 2.260"-2.285" is a good place to start. For cleaning I first use Bore-Tech C4 carbon remover and then follow with Bore-Tech Eliminator; finish with dry patches then take a loose patch with Lock-Ease and coat the inside of the barrel and set it on end muzzle down for about 45 minutes until dry and its ready for the next trip to the range after a dry patch is pushed thru the barrel to remove any of the excess colloidal graphite. BTW... it wouldn't hurt to swab the chamber area too. YMMV

[venison_burger]

I tried several things with the 39 SBKs to get them to shoot. My best group was a three shot group at .86 inches... Mostly BLC2 powder (which shoots great for my other bullets) but I did try Benchmark as well. I shot a pressure series of BLC2 from 29 to 30 grains of powder, all keyholed. The overall length for this series was 2.26. Then I tried switching to the benchmark and moving the OAL out to 2.3 and 2.34 inches... Similar story for the 40 gr. vmax but I haven't tried everything yet.

I'll probably give Remington a call tomorrow. At least the bergers still perform for my upcoming coyote trip in western ND. Thanks for the help.

[Jim White]

I gave up n Hornady 40 V-MAX bullets. No matter what I tried powder (Varget, RE-15, H4895), Primer (Rem 7 1/2, CCI-BR, Fed GM Match, WSR, CCI,), they just wouldn't group in my Remington. My CZ shows some grouping,

The 39 SBK is a different story. Several 5-shot groups with holes all touching at 200 yards. Never tried 32 grainers of any flavor.

Jim

[glenn asher]

The problems with the 40 Hornady are pretty common, if you check WAAAAAAAAAAY back in this forum, you'll find a bunch of complaints with factory rifles and 40s. Most of us are not having any issues with the Sierra 39s, but apparently your rifle simply won't shoot anything much heavier than 35s. My Savage is the same way, though with some dumb luck, it shoots the 39s "tolerably" well, not great, but tolerable.

Most of us just gave up on the 40 Hornadys, unless we had a custom barrel.

What I, personally, think is going on, is that the nominal twist rate of factory rifles, supposedly a 1-12" twist, is more likely morphed into a 1-12.5" or worse rate, due to sloppy practices at the factories. Since 1-12" is barely able to stabilize a 40 grain bullet, especially one as long as Hornady's, you're getting keyholes.

I mostly shoot at prairie dogs with mine, so I don't mind using the 32s only in my rifle, I can use other rifles if I want to shoot further out, but it rankles a lot to buy a rifle and not be able to use all the common weights/lengths bullets available.

When this barrel is worn out, I'll switch to a PacNor SuperMatch with a 1-11" twist.

[jo191145]

As Glenn said its the barrel. Very common problem with factory offerings. 2 out of 5 of my Savage barrels liked 40's. The other three would spit them out like rocks.
I have a McGowen 11 twist. Its an OK aftermarket barrel. Not top of the line but OK
With very little load development it will shoot the 39's and 40 Bergs/V-Max under .5moa at 200yds. Just about any suitable powder and seating depth, find the correct charge weight and it shoots. I haven't spent much time tweaking those loads as this barrel does not fit into any of my requirements.
40 Noslers on the other hand just don't seem to work to well in it. No idea why???

Its quite possible a custom 12 twist would shoot the 40's good. I see no reason to gamble on it though. When switching out go to an 11 or 10 depending on what the specific manufacturer offers.

[venison_burger]

Thanks for the help, fellas. Its frusterating indeed. I haven't called the factory yet, but has anyone gotten a response from Remington or Savage? Since some Remington/Savage barrels obviously DO shoot the heavier bullets, would the factory look at a gun if you sent it in?

Thanks again,
vb

[jo191145]

I'll bet its frustrating. I had a barrel that did all sorts of nasty things to 39bk's. 40 V-maxs grouped 5-8 inches at 200 yds but the 39's keyholed or shredded in flight. Shot 35 Bergs like nobodys business tho

Fairly certain Savage would replace it. I've read accounts on the web of Sav replacing barrels simply because the owner wanted better accuracy. One in particular told Sav if it would'nt shoot .25 moa to not send the gun back. That ruffled my feathers a bit. Its asking way to much for an off the shelf rifle maker to quarentee .25moa from a reloader they know nothing about.
.25 moa from a Sav or Remmy is not impossible like some folks may believe. It takes a lot of commitment and luck. Keeping it at that level requires a whole lot more of the same. I'm not talking about lucky groups. I mean agging ability. I digress.

Send a pic of those keyholing targets to Remmy. They should replace it with that type of evidence.

Personally I feel a Sav or Remmy is a parts kit. Has all the pieces its up to the owner to make it work. Thats the reason I shoot Savs. I can easily replace anything I think is not up to snuff for fairly cheap. Thats just me though. Send it back and see if you get a better tube the next time around.
Only other recourse is shoot the lights or have a custom tube installed.
Let us know what Remmy says.

[SShooterZ]

Having not reloaded for the .204 yet my input may be simply conjecture but I will throw it out there.

In my limited experience I've seen some key holed groups not from weight but from bullet length. Take a SBK vs. a Hornady vs. a Nosler etc. and many times you'll find the same weight with different lengths and different ogives. Sometimes longer bullets cause the problem, sometimes its the shorter.

The other issue I've seen in velocity. The twist of the barrel might be OK but you're simply not pushing the bullet fast enough down it to get it to stabilize.

Again, simply some of my experiences in other rounds but I thought I would throw them out there. Sure is frustrating when you can't get a gun to shoot. Been there, done that.

[FireBallGuy]

Had the same problem in a savage and one remington. SHot the 32's fine anything else......SIDEWAYS!! The savage, as determined by a gunsmith had a bad barrel and the remington was just a piece of junk. My new VSF on the other hand, does not really like Vmax's but at least puts them through targets straight. Give it 39 BK's and well.....A WINNER!! Have your smith scope the bore and seee what is going on, worse case, dump the gun. I have no use for a 204 that WON'T shoot heavy bullets.

[slickshot223]

I've just returned from a frusterating day at the range that was cut short by a terrible key-hole problem. Today was my first day shooting my 40 gr. VMax bullets that I've loaded over BLC-2 powder. I'm shooting a Rem 700 with a 1-12" twist barrel. My first couple groups at 100 yards measured 3 to 5 inches and tore jagged key-holes in the paper. I tried a three-shot group at 200 yards. One bullet hit the 8x11" piece of paper, the other two did not. I then tried my 35 gr. bergers to make sure my rifle wasn't ruined somehow, and they shot their usual sub-inch group. I tried 39 gr. SBKs a couple months ago which also key-holed, and I was hopping I got a bad batch. I tried a couple different powders and seating depths, to no avail...

I seem to remember reading about people with similar problems on this site, although i couldn't find anything in 15 minutes of looking. Does this sounds familiar to anyone? 32 gr. v-max and 35 gr. bergers shoot wonderfully. 39 and 40 gr. bullets do not. Is there anything I can do short of re-barreling? Thanks,

Have 3 rifles in 204---Kimber Varmint, Savage 12 and a Model 1 Sales AR15 upper all shoot the 39SBK, 40 Vmax and 40 Noslers into less than 1/2" at 130 yrds---must admit that the 39 SBK's shoot a bit tighter in all three--have settled on RL-15 powder---also all three rifles shoot the factory 40 Vmax under 3/4" Have never shot any of the other bullets--no reason!

[glenn asher]

I've just returned from a frusterating day at the range that was cut short by a terrible key-hole problem. Today was my first day shooting my 40 gr. VMax bullets that I've loaded over BLC-2 powder. I'm shooting a Rem 700 with a 1-12" twist barrel. My first couple groups at 100 yards measured 3 to 5 inches and tore jagged key-holes in the paper. I tried a three-shot group at 200 yards. One bullet hit the 8x11" piece of paper, the other two did not. I then tried my 35 gr. bergers to make sure my rifle wasn't ruined somehow, and they shot their usual sub-inch group. I tried 39 gr. SBKs a couple months ago which also key-holed, and I was hopping I got a bad batch. I tried a couple different powders and seating depths, to no avail...

I seem to remember reading about people with similar problems on this site, although i couldn't find anything in 15 minutes of looking. Does this sounds familiar to anyone? 32 gr. v-max and 35 gr. bergers shoot wonderfully. 39 and 40 gr. bullets do not. Is there anything I can do short of re-barreling? Thanks,

Have 3 rifles in 204---Kimber Varmint, Savage 12 and a Model 1 Sales AR15 upper all shoot the 39SBK, 40 Vmax and 40 Noslers into less than 1/2" at 130 yrds---must admit that the 39 SBK's shoot a bit tighter in all three--have settled on RL-15 powder---also all three rifles shoot the factory 40 Vmax under 3/4" Have never shot any of the other bullets--no reason!

If my rifles would do that, I wouldn't be using the lighter ones!