Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:00 am
Went to the range today and what did I get?? My first split neck on the 8th loading of the case 
Page 2 of 2
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:48 am
Hawkeye Joe, How are your primer pockets after 8 firings? Have you annealed? Factory chamber? I believe you are neck turning if I remember correctly. Just curious as what to expect more or less with my WW brass.
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:18 am
WP
No neck turning needed on THIS lot of 100 cases.Wall thickness was within .0005.I never had a need to anneal until now
.The Hornady brass I have was hard to neck size after 4 reloads.They needed annealing BIG Time! I probably tossed 8 or so in the scrap bin because of loose primer pockets.I think this will be the last loading for this lot of 100 cases.And yes it's a factory chamber.My FIRED case neck Diameter is .230. What's yours measure?? Maybe I'm on the low end of the tolerance and "work hardening" is minimal 
No neck turning needed on THIS lot of 100 cases.Wall thickness was within .0005.I never had a need to anneal until now
.The Hornady brass I have was hard to neck size after 4 reloads.They needed annealing BIG Time! I probably tossed 8 or so in the scrap bin because of loose primer pockets.I think this will be the last loading for this lot of 100 cases.And yes it's a factory chamber.My FIRED case neck Diameter is .230. What's yours measure?? Maybe I'm on the low end of the tolerance and "work hardening" is minimal Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:25 am
Hawkeye Joe, Fired=.231, loaded=.227
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:32 am
About defective Win. brass, I bought a total of 500 and I had 1 bag that had 3 real bad ones in it. As described above, it looks like too much oil upon resizing. All 3 necks were split, 2 had bowl like dents in them with split neck with one of them having a big chip of brass hanging of the case mouth. One of the 3 was just split.
About annealing, I haven't done it yet on my 204 brass, but I've noticed that some of my brass(new) was hard to neck size, there seem to be a lot of drag going in and out. What does that mean and what could be the outcome on the target? As well, some of you anneal right out of the bag. Do you neck size and then anneal and, do you have to neck size again after annealing? Or do you anneal right out of the bag without neck sizing and then neck size?
Thanks for your answers.
Canis.
About annealing, I haven't done it yet on my 204 brass, but I've noticed that some of my brass(new) was hard to neck size, there seem to be a lot of drag going in and out. What does that mean and what could be the outcome on the target? As well, some of you anneal right out of the bag. Do you neck size and then anneal and, do you have to neck size again after annealing? Or do you anneal right out of the bag without neck sizing and then neck size?
Thanks for your answers.
Canis.
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:46 am
Hawkeye Joe.....I'd say it's time to anneal the remaining cases, and that way you can not scrap the entire batch.
I've used the Series II Annealing Tip from the Woodchuck Den for the last five years, and it has made all my annealing MUCH easier, and much more consistent to boot. Cost is about $15.
As for annealing right out the bag or not, ALL factory brass is annealed at the factory, to theoretically, no annealing is required, but some do it anyway just for the confidence it inspires. It is not wrong or right either way, but just another step some are willing to take to ensure complete consistency.
Personally, I anneal after six loadings, only neck size up until then, and continue to do so if the cases will be fired in the same rifle. I only F/L size to bump the shoulder back when needed, OR in some of my single shot falling block rifles that don't have great extraction power (No. 1, No.3, Browning/Win High/Low Walls, etc.) You can usually chamber a snug case with a bolt gun, no so with the falling blocks.
For the record, I use the 1/2" of water in a pie pan method, and use a slow 15 count with the propane/Series II tip panning over the neck/shoulder area, then tip over into the water to quench. I've been using this method for over 20 years, and in total honesty, I've never lost a case so treated.....ever! I've got a strong mechanical engineering background, was a certified welder for many years building machinery, used temp sticks in the shop, etc., but truly feel all that fuss is just not needed. Some experts anneal with a candle, holding the case in their fingers until too hot for crikey sake, then tip into cold water, so the method I use does not seem too casual, and no lost cases over all those years speak volumes......at least to me.
Hawkeye: Sorry about the bummer split necks....try that tip from Todd Kindler, you'll be glad you did.
I've used the Series II Annealing Tip from the Woodchuck Den for the last five years, and it has made all my annealing MUCH easier, and much more consistent to boot. Cost is about $15.
As for annealing right out the bag or not, ALL factory brass is annealed at the factory, to theoretically, no annealing is required, but some do it anyway just for the confidence it inspires. It is not wrong or right either way, but just another step some are willing to take to ensure complete consistency.
Personally, I anneal after six loadings, only neck size up until then, and continue to do so if the cases will be fired in the same rifle. I only F/L size to bump the shoulder back when needed, OR in some of my single shot falling block rifles that don't have great extraction power (No. 1, No.3, Browning/Win High/Low Walls, etc.) You can usually chamber a snug case with a bolt gun, no so with the falling blocks.
For the record, I use the 1/2" of water in a pie pan method, and use a slow 15 count with the propane/Series II tip panning over the neck/shoulder area, then tip over into the water to quench. I've been using this method for over 20 years, and in total honesty, I've never lost a case so treated.....ever! I've got a strong mechanical engineering background, was a certified welder for many years building machinery, used temp sticks in the shop, etc., but truly feel all that fuss is just not needed. Some experts anneal with a candle, holding the case in their fingers until too hot for crikey sake, then tip into cold water, so the method I use does not seem too casual, and no lost cases over all those years speak volumes......at least to me.
Hawkeye: Sorry about the bummer split necks....try that tip from Todd Kindler, you'll be glad you did.
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:03 pm
Canis Latrans
Right out of the bag I full length size my Winchester brass so they are all the same outside dimension to start with. Then I trim all to the same length. This makes all the cases have the same neck length which is a must for neck turning. The blade on my Forster neck turning tool is stopped by a step on the pilot mandel. If all cases aren't the same length then the blade will stop at different places on each neck. I want the blade to just cut into the neck to shoulder junction the exact same amount so it is important that all of them have the same length. Then I anneal all the cases mostly to prevent splitting, but also to promote uniform neck tension. Next I neck size, uniform primer pockets, deburr flash holes inside and out, etc. The reason I neck size is because the neck turning process expands the neck.
When I need to anneal them again I usually do that right after knocking out the primers but before I neck size. I would think that you would want to size the neck just before you seat the bullets. Otherwise you can't control neck tension very well. I have neck sized brass before and then let it sit for a month or more before I loaded it. It seemed like the necks were tighter than when I had loaded the others a month before. Now I like to neck size just before I charge the case and seat the bullet. No more letting them sit around.
Right out of the bag I full length size my Winchester brass so they are all the same outside dimension to start with. Then I trim all to the same length. This makes all the cases have the same neck length which is a must for neck turning. The blade on my Forster neck turning tool is stopped by a step on the pilot mandel. If all cases aren't the same length then the blade will stop at different places on each neck. I want the blade to just cut into the neck to shoulder junction the exact same amount so it is important that all of them have the same length. Then I anneal all the cases mostly to prevent splitting, but also to promote uniform neck tension. Next I neck size, uniform primer pockets, deburr flash holes inside and out, etc. The reason I neck size is because the neck turning process expands the neck.
When I need to anneal them again I usually do that right after knocking out the primers but before I neck size. I would think that you would want to size the neck just before you seat the bullets. Otherwise you can't control neck tension very well. I have neck sized brass before and then let it sit for a month or more before I loaded it. It seemed like the necks were tighter than when I had loaded the others a month before. Now I like to neck size just before I charge the case and seat the bullet. No more letting them sit around.
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:23 pm
Rick, The annealing tip is now $42.00 form Kindler. I wish it was $15.00. I works great but really only about one dollar worth of materials. If I ever need another now that I know what it looks like I'll make one with a little smaller interior diameter and some more evenly spaced holes. It is a great idea and after reviewing all the annealing options, am glad I went that route.
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:27 pm
WP: Holy crap!! $42????? You're right, not much there in terms of materials. He's getting pretty proud of those babies. I know what you mean, and eventually, I'll make another one too with small/more even holes.
No wonder Todd can build all those cool custom rifles!
You're right, not much there in terms of materials. He's getting pretty proud of those babies. I know what you mean, and eventually, I'll make another one too with small/more even holes.No wonder Todd can build all those cool custom rifles!
Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:00 pm
WP
Loaded = .227 also. Upon further review, I measured with a Blade Mic (instead of digital calipers)and found the Fired necks to have a .001 taper..231 on shoulder end to .230 on the tip.
Rick and Skipper
I guess it's time for me to put the other foot in the water Thanks!
Loaded = .227 also. Upon further review, I measured with a Blade Mic (instead of digital calipers)and found the Fired necks to have a .001 taper..231 on shoulder end to .230 on the tip.
Rick and Skipper
I guess it's time for me to put the other foot in the water
Thanks!Re: Win brass?
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:26 pm
Hey guys,
I'm usin winchester brass for my 204 as well. I started to post this in another thread but since this one deals with winchester brass, i thought i would put it here too. So, my group with fired brass is under 1/4". But the group with unfired winchester brass is around 3". I know about fireforming but with prepping 2000 rounds for prairie dog hunting, it's not feasible. Any help will be greatly appreciated!! Thanks!
I'm usin winchester brass for my 204 as well. I started to post this in another thread but since this one deals with winchester brass, i thought i would put it here too. So, my group with fired brass is under 1/4". But the group with unfired winchester brass is around 3". I know about fireforming but with prepping 2000 rounds for prairie dog hunting, it's not feasible. Any help will be greatly appreciated!! Thanks!
Re: Win brass?
Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:42 pm
I also uses a BenzaOmatic torch with a Lee case trimmer lock stud (fits in electric screwdrive) and a Lee case gage shell holder (looks like reg shell holder but has threads that screws onto end of lock stud. You only need one lock stud but a different shell holder for each case size. If you are only going to use it for annealing the setup would work any 223 base case (222-223-204-6Vartarg-TCU's). It only takes a 1/3 tune to take case out or in. The stud and shell holder together will run about $15-$16 from Midway and other shell holder are about $6 each. You can also trim the case (no adj) but must buy the shellholder and case length gage for that case. If you were going to trim 243 Win cases then you would to get a 243 Win shell holder/case gage set. . I had to uses it on 7.62x54 as the rim is too big for my Forester trimer and it worked. I have about 6 of the shell holders so I can anneal about 90% of the cases out there.