Handloads Fail To Fire in H&R 204

Earl Three Beavers · Post by **Earl Three Beavers** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:22 am

Been working up a load for both my CZ527 and H&R Ultra Rifle. I'm using new Winchester brass with CCIBR4 primers.

The CZ fires both factory ammo and my hand loads flawlessly.

The H&R fires factory ammo every time; with my handloads, its a FTF about 50% of rounds. The primer dimples but not hard enough to ignite. It almost always fires on the second try. Once I had to rotate the cartridge 90 degrees before it would light off on the third try.

The hand loads work fine in the CZ, so I can't think it's just the cartridge. The factory stuff fires in the H&R so I can't think it's just the gun.

Thanks for any suggestions.

jo191145 · Post by **jo191145** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:40 am

Sounds like your Win brass has the shoulders set back to far for your HR.
You want to measure the shoulders between fired and unfired brass to see how far its moving. That should show you the problem.
You can also measure and compare the fired brass between your CZ and HR. You just might have to fireform the Win brass in your CZ once and then in your HR.
Do not mix brass between these two rifles after fire forming. The HR's are prone to long headspace and stretching/bending brass due to flexing of the action.

The other possibility is your FL sizer is adjusted to deep. If your using one ?
You definitely want to check the headspace on that HR though. Your not the first to have problems. Case head separation has occurred in those rifles.

acloco · Post by **acloco** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:19 am

You have another oversized chamber from NEF.

jo191145 · Post by **jo191145** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:23 am

acloco wrote:You have another oversized chamber from NEF.

Yeah but think of all the extra powder he'll be able to stuff in that thing

Earl Three Beavers · Post by **Earl Three Beavers** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:03 am

Thanks for your ideas, guys. The Win brass was full length sized per instructions and set up provided with the Redding Competition die set. I did just run some measurements on both guns and once fired brass from each gun.

To muddy (?) the issue:

The Stoney point gauge with a 39 gr Sierra BK gave a max COAL of

CZ 2.456
H&R 2.323

OAL of spent brass case:

CZ 1.847
H&R 1.845

At the shoulders:

CZ 0.362
H&R 0.360

Head, at 0.332 from the rim:

CZ 0.376
H&R 0.376

Brass weight:

CZ 95.3 gr
H&R 94.6 gr

I put a primer in and the weight of 10X powder held in case:

CZ 30.8 gr
H&R 30.5 gr

And the finale:

The CZ fired case does not seat completely in the H&R chamber, leaving 0.124 outside the chamber.

Hope this helps. I'll appreciate any suggestions.

jo191145 · Post by **jo191145** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:05 pm

Earl
Lots of measurements there. Not the one we're looking for though. Unless I missed it.
Do you have a .30 caliber comparator insert for your Stoney Point guage?
If so use that to comparatively measure your cases headspace length. .30 cal will slip over your neck and come to rest roughly midpoint on the shoulder. The measurement between base and center of shoulder is your headspace. This is not an exact saami headspace measurement but can be used by yourself for checking headspace and setting your FL die to bump the shoulder.
Compare everything. FL sized case vs fired cases vs fired cases in your CZ.
The specs you gave suggest your chamber is a little tighter than on the CZ. Headspace can not be determined by that but its a good sign anyway.
If all else fails screw your FL die out 1/4 turn and try again.

Bad Dad · Post by **Bad Dad** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:59 pm

Earl,
Mine is starting to do the same thing. same CCIBR4 primers 1 out of every10-20 are not firing. I thought is was the primers since these are about 20 years old but if you are having the same problem then it might be the guns. One thing I noticed it that I had a lot of oil in mine and it was working fine, but I blew it out and cleaned out a lot of the excess oil about 2 weeks ago and thatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s about when it started to miss. So I might oil it up again and see if it helps. If not then IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ll have to call the factory.

huntsman22 · Post by **huntsman22** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:44 pm

Not to hijack, but........Bad dad, How ya healing and feeling?Don

Earl Three Beavers · Post by **Earl Three Beavers** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:02 pm

jo191145, nope, don't have that 30 cal comparator insert. Where can I get such an animal? I've never measured headspace before, just cases and OAL.

So, if we get the brass to the right dimensions, that puppy should fire each time!?

jo191145 · Post by **jo191145** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:24 pm

Earl Three Beavers wrote:

So, if we get the brass to the right dimensions, that puppy should fire each time!?

Sorry Earl There are no guarantees on internet gunsmithing

A Stoney Point compartor can be bought from Midway among others. My suggestion, buy the body and .20 and .30 inserts separately unless you load for a lot of different calibers.
For the time being you might be able to get away using something makeshift. An empty .30 cartridge or 12 point socket come to mind. Basically anything that can fit over the neck and is fairly concentric. Granted none of these will be 100% accurate or easy to use but we're looking for quite a bit of variation to keep a primer from firing.

gwglave · Post by **gwglave** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:50 pm

ETB
Not sure if these numbers will be of any value to you, but some time ago I did some fired case headspace measurements for my Rem 700 VLS. I did a sample of 20 Win cases which had been loaded 2 times. The load was Sierra 39BK, Rem 7 1/2, 27.5 grs H4895.
To get the measurements, I used a Stoney Point Headspace gauge and my Mitutotyo digital calipers. Values ranged from 1.5580" to 1.5605".
By the way, I have used all the common primers, WSR, CCI400, CCI- BR4, Rem 7 1/2 and Fed 205M without problems.
You can get the Stoney Point "Head 'N Shoulders" cartridge headspace gauge set from Midway. They are not expensive and give you a lot of good information for setting up your FL dies.
Hope this helps.

Rgds, Gerry

Earl Three Beavers · Post by **Earl Three Beavers** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:06 am

Thanks Gerry and jo191145. I just ordered the Hornady body and 6 inserts and the 204 insert which will cover the .223 and .25-06, and is a tad cheaper that way. Seems that Hornady bought out Stoney Point and that the SP name is now fading.........

Looking forward to getting the H&R (my "truck gun") set up right. I'll let you know what shakes out on the measurements next week. Hopefully some other H&R shooters may benefit from this, too.

In the meantime, the CZ gave me a .350" five shot group yesterday using a new COAL of 2.315.

100 rounds are loaded up for Mr. Groundhog tomorrow.

contender hunter · Post by **contender hunter** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:16 am

I had a similar problem in a Thompson center contender , I had gone to neck sizing after full length sizing the first time ,after neck sizing only two times the gun wouldn't fire, the brass needed to have the shoulder bumped back so that the action would close all the way in order for the safety mechanism to allow the hammer to fall . I think in break open actions similar to the T/C your better off adjusting a full length die down until its just enough to close in your particular gun., problem solved!

Earl Three Beavers · Post by **Earl Three Beavers** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:59 pm

Contender hunter, did the firing pin dimple the primer at all? Would the cartridge fire on a second try?

jo191145 said "Sounds like your Win brass has the shoulders set back to far for your HR", which sounds like an opposite problem.

I do believe the problem is with the headspace on the brass, which way, not sure.

This H&R had a .25-06 Rem barrel on it when new and I never had a problem with the action using reloads then.

I'll know a bit more when the headspace gauge gets here and I measure a few casings. Thanks for your input.

contender hunter · Post by **contender hunter** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:57 pm

NO PRIMERS TOUCHED , The safety mechanism built in doesn't allow the hammer to fall all the way.