holding a group at range

[zx10mike]

my pet loads seem to group between .25 - .50 @100 yds but seem to open disproportionatley as @ 200 yds they can be 3" or worse.is this just a load issue or concentricity????? she is in having the barrel choped at the moment so loads wii probably change.i use redding dies and i'm thinking of getting a comp seat die to see if it helps but they are not cheep if it turns out not to make much difference.

[Hedge]

Could be either. Could be the bullet, too. But, since the barrel is being cut down, it's really a non-issue until you re-work the loads for the new length. The fact that the groups vary from .25 - .50, though, tells me your load isn't stable. Have you tried running an OCW test to find the right charge weight?

As for getting the comp seater die. Hang on to your $ for a bit and try using the Lee collet die set. It comes with a seater. As inexpensive as the set is, it performs. The collet die keeps the runout to .002" or less and the seater is more consistent than my micrometer seater.

[zx10mike]

thanks for your reply.the .25 is my first pet load @3100 fps and a tad under min charge. .50 was pet 2 3 4 all seem about .50 but faster loads pet load 2 is 3600 fps but i have never found a load that stays tight at distance partly my shooting i'm sure .but you know when rounds are not hitting were you aim. i should add that my redding seating die kept leaving a ring on the bullet heads when seating so i polished it carefully to smooth it out makes me think although i removed no material really have i made concentricity worse. i balance beam wiegh and trickle each load carefully.

[GaCop]

Could be either. Could be the bullet, too. But, since the barrel is being cut down, it's really a non-issue until you re-work the loads for the new length. The fact that the groups vary from .25 - .50, though, tells me your load isn't stable. Have you tried running an OCW test to find the right charge weight?

As for getting the comp seater die. Hang on to your $ for a bit and try using the Lee collet die set. It comes with a seater. As inexpensive as the set is, it performs. The collet die keeps the runout to .002" or less and the seater is more consistent than my micrometer seater.

+1

[Hedge]

Here's a link with something for you to study while you're waiting for your barrel.

http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=3

It's a great way to find the load you're looking for and should help you gain some insight on any problems you may encounter in your tests.

Keep us posted on your progress. We're all here to help.

[jrwoitalla]

Have you considered that perhaps it could be a scope/parallax issue? Most scopes have their parallax adjusted for 100yds. Past that things can be way out of adjustment: just a thought. What scope and power setting are you using? Are you being super careful about your cheek placement

[Wrangler John]

Assume we are talking about the .204 Ruger. It is just about impossible to diagnose the problem, if there is one, without knowing a great deal more. What load, which bullet, what rifle, what barrel, what twist? Even then the problem may elude any remote viewing solution, except for the psychics among us.

Slight rings on the bullet ogive from the seating die stem is likely not an issue. After all, you are going to accelerate the bullet into lands within a few micro-seconds, under extreme heat and pressure, engrave the rifling on the jacket, which will rotate the bullet from 0 to somewhere north of 200,000 rpm by the time it exits the muzzle - what's a little scratch?

When I checked all my cartridges in several calibers for concentricity, I found that they were all well within limits - usually .001"- .0015". Didn't matter if I used Redding, RCBS, Hornady, Forster, CH-4D, or even Lee dies (don't sell those inexpensive Lee tools short, they work as well as any) didn't matter if I cranked them out on the Redding T-7 Turret, RCBS 2000 Pro Progressive or 35 year old Rockchucker. Didn't seem to matter if I used a bushing type neck die, a full length die, or a bushing body bump die. Turned brass was the same as that that just came out of the box or bag. I like the RCBS competition style seating die with the Vickerman type side window for loading bullets, especially with my big hands and tiny .204 bullets.

If the groups are disproportionately larger at 200 yards then they are at 100, with similar environmental conditions over the course, then it may be the bullet. Some bullets are not as accurate at 200 yards as theory dictates. If it were me I would try a different bullet - my pet load cranks my favorite bullet out at 4,110 fps with a very moderate load. Maybe try a Berger bullet, maybe just grab a Big Mac and a Bud and forget the whole thing. Ah well, it's the experimenting that the fun of it all. Let us know how it shoots when it comes back, maybe the new muzzle crown will solve your problem.

[zx10mike]

thanks john,i use 40grn v max.my rifle hates nosler perhaps i will experiment further with sbk 39.in my 1 in 11 twist.rl 15 powder or 10x with sbk.will see how it shoots with the 22" barrel picking it up thursday.

[jrwoitalla]

FWIW-my last trip to the range resulted in mediocre groups for my 204-1" to 1.5"@ 200yds. The only things that were different were that the brass was brand new and the temp was significantly lower than I have been shooting. I attribute my biggest problem to the necks not being very concentric from getting banged up in transit. I don't want to go the trouble of neck sizing the remaining pieces as I don't want to sacrifice my primers. Are you using front and rear rests? Have you thought about the parallax issue? Is you wearin comfortable under britches when you go a shootin?

[RAMOS]

You have to size those necks! Some may not agree with me from a safety standpoint, I would pull the de-capping pin and re-size them with the live primers in place.

Front and rear rests? You need that rifle as stable as you can get it. You are testing the load and firearm, not your ability to hold it on target.

Paralax? Adjust it according to the owners manual.

Comfortable under britches? Try doing anything with your panties in a wad, ain't gonna work!

I'll stick to my guns here in regards to my original response above. It is all about dealing with one variable at a time. Those necks could very well be messing with you. Get them sized and properly chamferred.

I don't really consider the brass "settled" until full prep and on it's second firing. This includes trimming as needed after first firing.

Take it slow, keep good notes and, be methodical. Remember to have fun!

[zx10mike]

WOW THANKS FOR ALL YOUR REPLIES.PICKED HER UP TODAY AND I'M GOING TO SEE HOW SHE BEHAVES.MY SCOPE IS LEUP MK 4 6.5 X 25 PARALAX ADJ WILL CHECK PARALLAX WEAR COMFY BREECHES AND GET EVEN MORE ANAL ABOUT THOSE NECKS. WILL KEEP YOU POSTED.THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP GUYS.FOR SOME REASON I HAVE ONLY JUST SEEN SOME OF THE REPLYS.HOPE TO GET OUT THIS WEEKEND.ORDERED A COMP DIE FROM REDDING HOPE THIS WILL HELP TO

[ryutzy]

What Ramos said!! It's all about the necks! And case mouth----be super cautious with the chamfering tool. Nice and even and not too deep. Make sure that Redding die is set up properly and you will fall in love with it as many of us others have!

[GaCop]

You have to size those necks! Some may not agree with me from a safety standpoint, I would pull the de-capping pin and re-size them with the live primers in place.

Front and rear rests? You need that rifle as stable as you can get it. You are testing the load and firearm, not your ability to hold it on target.

Paralax? Adjust it according to the owners manual.

Comfortable under britches? Try doing anything with your panties in a wad, ain't gonna work!

I'll stick to my guns here in regards to my original response above. It is all about dealing with one variable at a time. Those necks could very well be messing with you. Get them sized and properly chamferred.

I don't really consider the brass "settled" until full prep and on it's second firing. This includes trimming as needed after first firing.

Take it slow, keep good notes and, be methodical. Remember to have fun!

+1, good advice.

[zx10mike]

well chaps i got my rifle back with a 22" barrel,she still shoots my pet load wich was a bonus.the redding comp seater came but made no real distance at 100 yds.however i also bought some berger 40 grn bullets and it seems to like them.at 100 yds still with 27.2 rl 15 she gave groups of .50 consistently . i zero my comp die to match the old length .50".i then seat 5 tho out and things tighten seat ten tho out they open a bit.i made some loads of my pet rl15 27.2 grn with berger bullets seated 5 tho further out than norm and i get groups between .20 best .40 worst.the mane thing is although its early days the same load just gave me a three shot group of .90 at 200 yds.its dark by 4 here so i will make up some more and get back out asap.if she behaves like that or is kind enough to give a 2 " group at three hundred i can't moan.
is this fairly good?
thanks for the halp and will keep you posted

[GaCop]

For proper load development, especially for long range work, a chronograph is an indespensible tool. Besides shot to shot velocities and average velocities, it will also tell you the Standard Deviation (SD) and Extreme Spread (ES) of your loads. Low SD/ES numbers usually mean you loads will perform well at longer range w/o verticle dispersion.

Tom