My brass seems to be too soft

[futuretrades]

I am really in a quandry. i started reloading for my new Weatherby Howa 1500 in 204 Ruger. I bought brand new winchester brass when i got the rifle. never fired factory loads in her. I run all of this brass thru a full size die, RCBS new, and trim to 1.840 and chamfer inside and out. Then the problem arises when i begin to seat the bullets. after about 15 or 20 rounds, sometimes less, i start getting crushed cases. the cases crush on the shoulder edge, and with very little force on the press handle. i have double and triple checked the seating die setup. Rcbs says back the die off, then run a powder charged shell up in the die, then run the die down until it touches the mouth, then back the die off one full turn, which i did and locked it down. then set the seating depth at 2.256. i am loading h335 powder with hornady 40gr vmax bullets. i even backed the die off 2 full turns with no difference. i have checked the inside neck diameter with my caliper at .201 to .203 and even started checking the bullet diameter at .204. i have since bought a set of redding dies, and no difference, and even a set of rcbs competition dies. same problem. with the competition dies it is very hard to set up too close the bottom of the die. i am not new to reloading. been reloading 223's by the hundreds with little or no problems. i load for my 270 with no problems and have been loading for my 357 revolver. 357 and a whole lot of 38's. i even tried loading 32gr vmax with no difference. i have not tried loading any of my 1x fired brass, but that will be my next step. this is gettin expensive with wasted brass, powder primers and bullets.
has anyone else had any problems with winchester new brass. i bought 600 rounds of this stuff, and have loaded 140 plus another 30 to 40 crushed cases.
any ideas will be truly appreciated.

[WHISTLEPIG]

Couple of thoughts. Are you inside neck champhering? Is your seater stem allowing the bullet nose to bottom out or is it seating off the ogive? If you are neck sizing, what bushing are you using? Are you running an expander ball? If so, is it set correctly?

[Vartarg]

I've only used Remington brass for my .204, so I can't help directly with the Win brass. Have you thought about buying 20 or 50 of another brand brass and giving it a try? I can't imagine that Win is that soft...I think we'd have heard about that sooner. I'll look forward to some of the comments on the more experienced folk here on the forum.......

[skipper]

Use an empty case for a test. Back the die off quite a ways so that there is no internal contact with the case when you lower the ram arm all the way. The ram arm needs to lower all the way so you can rule out over travel. Back the seater stem out or completely remove it so you know for sure that it isn't going to contact the case mouth. Now lower the die, without a bullet, until it just contacts the case shoulder. Back the die off one turn and lock it down. Now run the ram arm up and down to make sure that nothing is making contact. Now set a bullet on top of the case and run it into the die. There should not be any contact because the seating stem is still out of the picture. Now run the seating stem into the die until you feel it make contact with the bullet. Raise the ram arm just a little so that you can run the seating stem one turn lower. Now lower the ram arm again. The bullet should just start into the case mouth. Raise the ram arm all the way so you can inspect the shoulder. You shouldn't see any signs of crushing. If you do, there might be a problem with the brass being too soft. If not, lower the seating stem another turn. Lower the ram arm again and the bullet should seat further. Repeat this process until you get to your desired seating depth. If you can seat one bullet this way without crushing the case, you should be able to seat them all.

[Rugerdogdog]

As usual Skipper has the goods on this one. Also remember that when you change bullets you will have to do it all again. Thankfully with the 204, the difference in bullet length from weight to weight isn't much as say the 270 where I load everything from 90gr to 150gr.
I've not had any problems with Win brass but I Have crushed a few cases (at the shoulder) due to having the seating STEM to far down and/or running the case too far into the die.

[acloco]

You have an expander ball that is too small. After the case is sized at the top, the ball is pulled through the case mouth last.

[futuretrades]

i bought brand new rcbs dies to start with. when i started having problems i bought a brand new set of redding dies. same problem with both sets of dies, so bought a new competition seating die made by rcbs, same results as stated in my earlier post i am full length resizing, not neck sizing and i chamfered both inside and out. also, the problem only happens once in a while. if my dies were not adjusted correct, wouldn't every shell be crushed in the same way. again as i stated earlier, i trimmed all the brass, after resizing, to 1.840.
i ordered some new remington brass tonight and will try it when it comes in. in the mean time i will go thru the process recommended by skipper. will post the results.
thanks all

[futuretrades]

just finished reloading some of my 1x reloaded brass. interesting results; i made absolutely no adjustments to my dies. prepped and loaded 50 rounds with absolutely no problems whatsoever. The 1x reloaded brass that i used was some of the winchester brass that i had no problems with on the 1st loading, but from the same bag of 100. to me, that means there is a problem with the brass, and more than likely, not my setup. does anybody think otherwise? if so i would really like to hear from you, and maybe you can give me possibilities why my assumption is wrong.
thanks
kevin

[acloco]

I have one more question...are you lubing the inside of the necks prior to sizing?

[futuretrades]

I have one more question...are you lubing the inside of the necks prior to sizing?

no, i am not lubing the inside of the necks, but have been considering it.

[acloco]

Ah...there is your problem.

The inside of the necks are probably scratched and not letting the bullets slide into the neck. Same as serrating the handle on a ratchet.

Might take a look at your expander ball/button - probably scratched lightly/heavily. May need a new one, may only need to gently polish.

I believe LIGHTLY lubing the inside of the necks accomplishes two things. By running a brush through the neck, it removes any deposits from the burnt powder and also lubes the inside of the case for the expander ball to gently/precisely size the inside of the necks.

To lube the brush, touch the lube with one finger, and rub on the brush. Do this in three places on the brush and call it good. One lubing of the brush lasts...quite a few rounds.

Wipe off any excess on the outside of the case/case necks.

I also tumble my brass after all of the sizing operations....removes any remaining lube.

[WHISTLEPIG]

There should be no need to lube the inside of a case neck to facilitate bullet seating.

[acloco]

The result is found when seating bullets. The damage to the inside of the neck has already occurred in the sizing process.

Unless you are using a tulip shaped expanding ball (Hornady new dimension II) or a carbide, lubing the inside of the neck on bottle neck cartridges is a good idea.

[jo191145]

Its also possible that by not lubing the necks your pulling the shoulders forward as the expander ball exits the case.
A tightly adjusted seater die then might be bumping back the shoulders somewhat. If it was a large enough variation it could weaken the brass enough to crush the shoulder.
OK not a very likely scenario but you should definately be lubing the necks during FL sizing. Standard FL dies usually constrict the neck quite a bit.
I only need to FL size when switching brass from one chamber to another but when I do I stand them up on a baking pan. A couple sprays of lube gets a little on the interior/exterior of the neck. Knock em over and roll em around in the overspray.
Size and tumble.

Have you cross sectioned any of the damaged pieces of brass?

[futuretrades]

i am a little leary using case lube in the inside of the necks, but i do have some mica and case neck brushes. is mica ok to use on the inside of the necks. my understanding is it will not contaminate the powder or primers. also i have polished the expander ball with 600 sand paper and then finished with 2000 grit.